Swim Like an Arrow

Unknown Speaker

Alright, welcome back to the MindFit Athlete Podcast! I'm John and I'm joined today by Emily and Jamie. So, we're diving into a topic that, honestly, most swimmers and triathletes have heard of but might not really understand - tautness. And no, it's not just about flexing your abs for Instagram. Tautness belongs in the next area of focus that comes after breathing in the Swim Smooth stroke correction hierarchy. Emily, you remember how last episode we talked about breathing as the foundation? Well, the reduction of drag is the next skill barrier to break through. Swim Smooth bundle head position and leg efficiency with core strength as the 3 key areas to reduce our resistance in the water.

Emily Carter

Absolutely, John. And I’ll admit, when I first heard the word “tautness” in a swim context, I thought it sounded a bit... intimidating? But it’s really about making your body long, firm, and streamlined in the water. Think of it as the difference between the arrow-straight movement of a torpedo versus flopping around like a pool noodle. The science is pretty clear: when you engage your core, keep your spine and neck neutral, and point your toes, you reduce drag and move more efficiently. It’s not about being stiff, but about having that active, connected feeling from head to toe.

Jamie Russell

Yeah, and I love that analogy, Emily. I saw a video recently—Trevor, this swimmer, looked like he was a foot longer than everyone else in the pool, just by swimming tall. Meanwhile, the “pool noodle” effect is real—if you’re floppy, you’re slow. So, tautness is kind of the engine room for alignment. When we talk about "swimming tall" or "swimming proud" you can visualize that straight body alignment, but you actually create it by feeling tautness. Without it, your hips sag, your body snakes, and you end up working twice as hard for half the speed.

Emily Carter

"Snakes" is exactly the word. You don't want to swim like a snake you want to swim like an arrow & tautness is the key to that. I know that Joe Friel calls this whole head, legs and body position combination "posture in the water" and that idea really works for me.

Unknown Speaker

So, if you want to swim like an arrow and not like a noodle, tautness is your ticket. It’s the active engagement that locks your body into that long, hydrodynamic line. And it’s not just for the pool—this stuff matters for cycling and running too, but we’ll get to that. First, let’s break down what’s actually happening in your body when you’re taut.

Emily Carter

So, let’s talk core. When you engage your core—think bracing your abs, squeezing your glutes, and keeping a straight line from head to toe—you’re basically creating a stable platform. That stops energy leaks, which is a fancy way of saying you’re not wasting effort wiggling around. For me, core work was a game-changer. I used to get anxious in deep water, especially during my first triathlon. But once I started doing planks and really focusing on core engagement, I felt more in control and less panicky. It’s like your body knows it’s got a solid foundation, so your mind can relax a bit.

Jamie Russell

That’s so relatable, Emily. And from a biomechanics perspective, the core is what keeps your hips up and your legs from dragging. If you let your core go, your legs drop, and suddenly you’re swimming uphill. It’s like trying to ride a bike with a flat tire—possible, but why would you?

Emily Carter

I love that, Jamie. And for anyone listening who’s thinking, “But I’m not a gym person,” don’t worry. You don’t need to be. Even just thinking about bracing your abs and squeezing your glutes while you swim can make a huge difference. It’s about awareness and a bit of practice, not six-pack abs.

Jamie Russell

Alright, let’s quickly look at why Swim Smooth focused on leg efficiency and its role in creating drag. The magic is all in the hips, not the knees. A good flutter kick is narrow, with pointed toes and just a slight knee bend.

Unknown Speaker

Back it up Jamie!! Tell us about "flutter kick" - what do you mean?

Jamie Russell

Sorry John, you're quite right. In triathlon swimming, "flutter kick" refers specifically to the continuous, alternating, relatively small, and rapid up-and-down movement of the legs, originating from the hips, with relaxed knees and pointed ankles/feet.

Emily Carter

So, when we say "flutter kick," we're not just saying "use your legs." We're specifying the type of leg action that is characteristic of efficient freestyle and backstroke. The "flutter" implies that continuous, almost shimmering, low-amplitude, high-frequency motion that serves several critical roles in triathlon swimming.

Jamie Russell

Yes, it's a mistake to think that, as triathletes, our legs make much of contribution to our swim speed. It's the arms that provide the majority of propulsion in triathlon, the flutter kick is the "stabilizer" or "rudder" for your body. It prevents your hips from sinking and counterbalances the rotational forces of your arm stroke, keeping your body long and streamlined. An efficient flutter kick does provide some forward propulsion, particularly with relaxed ankles acting like mini-fins.

Unknown Speaker

But the focus is more about just doing enough and not over-fatiguing the legs for the bike and run?

Jamie Russell

That's right. But back to the key point here - kicking from the knee rather than from the hip. When you kick primarily from the knee, your lower leg "breaks" the streamlined line of your body. Imagine holding a paddle perpendicular to your direction of travel. That's essentially what your bent shin and foot become – a large surface area pushing against the water,

Emily Carter

Seems to me that kicking from the knee breaks that long, taut line we discussed. It introduces a hinge point that allows for more uncontrolled movement, making it harder to maintain a stable core and efficient rotation. A strong, hip-driven kick helps to counterbalance the arm stroke, keeping your body rotating around a stable, central axis.

Unknown Speaker

Let's not forget the muscles involved here. The quads are heavily engaged when kicking from the knee. And while they are large and strong, these are muscles that you'd want to keep fresh for the bike and run. A hip-driven kick utilizes the glutes and hamstrings more efficiently, which are more resilient for sustained, lower-intensity work. We want to save those quads for the latter stages of the race.

Jamie Russell

And if you watch elite triathlon swimmers, their kick is almost invisible—just a little flick from the hips. Less is more. If your kick is too big or floppy, you’re basically acting like a sea anchor. Keep it tight, keep it narrow, and let the power come from your hips.

Unknown Speaker

I love the coaching point on "keeping it narrow." You can imagine your feet are inside a 2 foot diameter bucket. You have to make your kick inside that bucket.

Emily Carter

"Kicking The Bucket" - that's a real Northern Irish expression John - you've just given it a whole new meaning!

Jamie Russell

Now, here’s where I think it gets especially interesting—tautness isn’t just for swimming. Lets take the bike for an example. Your legs are pushing all that power into the pedals, but if your middle section – your core – is wobbly, some of that power just leaks out.

Emily Carter

It's also a massive help for your lower back. When you're tucked down in that aero position, your back can take a beating. A strong core acts like your body's natural support belt, keeping everything stable and preventing those aches and pains that can really derail a long ride or race.

Jamie Russell

Plus, it helps your glutes actually do their job. If your core isn't strong, other muscles try to compensate, and that's when things start to hurt or get inefficient.

Emily Carter

Just going back to the aero position. Holding that low, tucked shape for miles on end isn't easy. It demands a ton of endurance from your core. It's what allows you to stay low and streamlined without your arms, shoulders, and neck getting super tired and stiff. It also helps you keep your head up to see where you're going without straining.

Jamie Russell

Ultimately, a strong, taut core means more power, less pain, and a much more comfortable and efficient ride. And for running, think “running tall”—like there’s a string pulling you up from the crown of your head. That keeps your posture proud and your stride efficient.

Emily Carter

I love that, Jamie. And for busy folks, you don’t need an hour at the gym. My go-to is a five-minute plank challenge. Just set a timer, mix in some side planks or glute bridges, and you’ll feel the difference in your next workout. It’s about building that mind-body connection, so you can “switch on” your core when you need it, whether you’re in the pool, on the bike, or running to catch a bus.

Jamie Russell

And honestly, it’s injury prevention too. If you’re stable and aligned, you’re less likely to tweak something, especially as the miles add up. So, tautness is kind of your insurance policy for endurance sports.

Emily Carter

I'd like to circle back to breathing for a second. It seems like there's a strong connection between tautness and efficient breathing?

Jamie Russell

Yes, there is. Imagine this: You're swimming along, and your core isn't quite as engaged as it could be. What happens? Your hips and legs start to drop. Now you're basically swimming uphill, dragging your lower body. When it's time to breathe, you instinctively try to lift your head higher to get air, and boom – your legs drop even more! You're fighting the water, getting less efficient with every stroke, and probably getting winded faster.

Emily Carter

So a weak core leads to poor body position, which makes breathing harder, which then leads to more frantic, gaspy breaths, and that makes your body position even worse. See how it just spirals?

Unknown Speaker

Well, we haven't much talked about rotation yet but In freestyle, you don't just lift your head to breathe; you rotate your whole body. Your core is the anchor for that rotation. If your core is floppy, your rotation is wobbly, and you create tons of drag. A strong core lets you roll smoothly and cleanly to the side, gaining a breath without disrupting your whole stroke.

Jamie Russell

Think of it this way. Every time you breathe, it's a momentary interruption to your streamline. The goal is to make that interruption as tiny as possible. With a taut core, you can roll, breathe, and roll back into that sleek, streamlined position almost seamlessly. No flopping or unnecessary movements.

Unknown Speaker

Alright, let’s take a short break before we look at our sequence of 9 swim drills to improve our tautness.

Unknown Speaker

Welcome back Team, Now back to the topic and it's time to get practical. There are some brilliant drills to help you actually feel and build tautness.

Jamie Russell

So I'm going to start with the Ballet Drill or Ballet Leg Kick.

Emily Carter

This drill is fantastic for building "tautness" in freestyle because it forces you to maintain a rigid, streamlined body position and drive your kick from your hips and core rather than just bending your knees.

Jamie Russell

Here's how to do it: Stand facing the pool's side wall in the deep end. Place one hand on the wall for balance. Extend one leg straight behind you, keeping the knee locked but not hyperextended, and your toes pointed. Actively squeeze your glute and engage your core to lift that leg straight up behind you, as if someone is pulling it from the heel. Focus on not letting your lower back arch or your hips pike. Your torso should remain straight and flat. Kick for 5-10 seconds, then switch legs. This is about feeling the active connection from your belly button through your glute to your hamstring.

Emily Carter

The drill will tell you if your hip is piking or your knee is bending. You should feel a strong, consistent connection from your core through your glute to your straight leg, like an extension of your torso.

Jamie Russell

Our second drill is - "Kicking on the Side with fins."

Unknown Speaker

Ok, if I remember correctly, this drill helps us to establish a stable, streamlined side position while perfecting the head turn for breathing, all without losing core tautness?

Jamie Russell

Yes, perfect. Here's how to do it: Lie on your side in the water. Extend your bottom arm directly forward, hand about 2-3 inches under the surface, finger tips pointed towards the far wall. Your top arm rests along your side, hand on your hip. Your head is initially looking straight down at the bottom of the pool, in line with your spine. Begin a narrow, continuous flutter kick, initiating the movement from your hips, not your knees. Just as you did in the Ballet drill. The fins should provide good propulsion.

Unknown Speaker

Focus on keeping your body in a straight line, from your extended fingertips through your shoulders, hips, and out to your toes. Imagine a pole running through your body. Keep your hips high and at the surface. Every 6-8 kicks (or as needed for comfort), perform a controlled, precise head turn to the side to take a quick breath. Your face should turn just enough to get air, with one goggle still in the water. As soon as you've inhaled, quickly return your head to the water, looking down again. The goal is for the rest of your body to remain perfectly still and aligned during the breath.

Emily Carter

You should be able to feel the engagement in your core (the abdominals and glutes) to prevent your hips from dropping or your body from bending in the middle during the kick and especially during the head turn. It should feel long and rigid. Oh, and don't "kick the bucket" on the flutter kick, right John?

Jamie Russell

Drill Number 3 is the 6-1-6 Drill. It’s a simple progression from "kicking on the side,

Emily Carter

But this time, after six kicks, you do one full arm stroke and rotate to the other side. Keep using fins. The key is to keep that “plank-like” tautness as you transition. No pausing or breaking the line—your core should drive the rotation, not a wild arm swing. It’s dynamic stability in action.

Jamie Russell

The point of this one is to integrate controlled body rotation and a single arm stroke while maintaining core tautness and a stable body line. It's teaching dynamic stability.

Unknown Speaker

That's a whole lot of drilling and we've a lot still to come so, let's take a pause and we'll be right back after this.

Emily Carter

Keep this party going guys! I have an easy one. Our drill number 4 is the 6-3-6 Drill. It's just a progression from 6-1-6. Just the same setup as before, but now you do three arm strokes between each side. Keep the fins. This really tests your ability to maintain tautness through a short sequence of strokes. If your hips sag or your body snakes, you’ll feel it right away. Remember - swim like an arrow.

Jamie Russell

Next up we have a change of postion. These are the “Wonder-Woman” and "Superman" progression of drills. So-called because you do them in a prone position, face down with arms stretched out front - like a super-hero flying through the air.

Emily Carter

Well, that seems about right. All our listeners are super-heroes!

Jamie Russell

Yeah. So drill no 5 is called "Kicking with a Kickboard, Front-Mounted Snorkel, and Fins."

Emily Carter

That's a mouthful.

Jamie Russell

I know. But it says it like it is. This is designed to introduce the feeling of a high, flat body position in the prone position. To do it: hold the kickboard with arms extended forward, hands gripping the side edges. Place the snorkel in your mouth. Your head should be looking straight down at the bottom of the pool. Begin a narrow, continuous flutter kick from the hips (just like the ballet drill). Actively press your chest down slightly – imagine "pressing a beach ball" just below your sternum. This action, combined with engaging your glutes, will help bring your hips up to the surface. Your body should feel long and flat, like a plank, from your head to your toes.

Emily Carter

Focus on feeling your abdominals and glutes engaged to maintain that perfectly flat, high body line. The snorkel ensures continuous breathing, allowing you to concentrate solely on body position. The fins provide easy propulsion

Unknown Speaker

I think these drills then progress by taking the toys away, right?

Jamie Russell

Yes, with Drill 6 we lose the kickboard and do the same thing as previously. It's called "Kicking with a Snorkel and Fins" And the whole point of that is to increase the demand on core tautness to maintain the high body position without the stability of the kickboard.

Emily Carter

Although you don't have the kickboard you extend your arms forward, directly out from your shoulder as if you had the kickboard. This is arms out super-hero style. Just as before, your head should be still, looking straight down. Do the narrow, continuous flutter kick from the hips. Actively engage your deep core muscles and glutes to keep your hips as high as possible, at or near the surface. Resist any tendency for your hips to sink. Your entire body should feel like one solid, streamlined unit gliding through the water.

Jamie Russell

You should feel the active work in your core. If your hips are dropping, you'll feel significantly more drag, indicating a lack of tautness. The fins still help with propulsion, allowing focus on core engagement.

Unknown Speaker

Ok, 6 down 3 to go. Back after this ...

Unknown Speaker

And we are back. We have 3 left and this progression is starting to get a little more challenging?

Jamie Russell

Maybe just a little. But it's all good. Drill 7 is "Kicking with a Kickboard, a Front-Mounted Snorkel but without Fins".

Unknown Speaker

So we get the kickboard back but lose the fins? That sure doesn't sound like a fair trade!

Jamie Russell

You're right. The idea is that you are going to have to work so much more without the fins. That will increase the demand on your kick and thus indirectly on your core for stability.

Emily Carter

You'll still have the kickboard for some support and the snorkel for continuous breathing though so go for it and enjoy the challenge. Focus on a quick, efficient kick from the hips, with relaxed ankles. Maintain the high, flat body position by actively engaging your core. The kickboard helps to keep your upper body steady - remember to hold it at the sides.

Jamie Russell

Just 2 to go. And this one is "the" opportunity to really feel like a super-hero.

Unknown Speaker

I bet the listener can guess what this is going to be?

Jamie Russell

Well, here it is. Drill 8 is "Kicking with Only a Front-Mounted Snorkel". There is no kickboard and no fins. This is where the rubber meets the road. The drill demands maximum active core engagement to maintain a high, flat, streamlined body position with no external aids for support or propulsion.

Emily Carter

So just as before extend your arms straight out from your shoulder super-hero style. Head still, looking straight down. Snorkel in. Perform a continuous, narrow, efficient flutter kick.

Jamie Russell

Without fins, every part of your kick needs to be effective to move you forward and keep your hips up. This is where you actively "become" that taut plank.

Emily Carter

Consciously squeeze your glutes, draw your belly button towards your spine, and gently press your chest down. The goal is to get your hips as high as possible, almost skimming the surface, while your head remains still and your arms are tightly streamlined.

Unknown Speaker

This drill provides immediate feedback. If your hips sink, you'll feel a significant increase in drag and have to work much harder to move. The feeling of gliding effortlessly through the water is a direct result of strong, consistent tautness.

Emily Carter

I think we're at the final one. You made it team!

Jamie Russell

Yes, and this one's special as it's done on your back. Unsurprisingly it's called "Kicking with Fins on Your Back". It's really designed to develop and feel tautness from a different orientation, emphasizing glute and lower back engagement to prevent hip sag on your back. It's excellent for understanding full-body alignment.

Emily Carter

Grab your fins. Lie on your back in the water. Extend your arms straight out from your shoulder - like a super-hero flying upside down. Your head should be still, with your ears just under the surface and your face exposed for continuous breathing. Your gaze should be straight up at the ceiling. Begin a continuous, narrow flutter kick from the hips. Yes, exactly like the ballet drill.

Jamie Russell

The challenge here is to keep your hips high and at the surface, preventing them from sinking and creating a "pike" in your body. Actively engage your glutes and lower core to maintain a flat, taut line from your head to your toes. Your chest should be up, not sinking.

Emily Carter

If your hips sag, you'll feel a distinct increase in drag, and it will be harder to move efficiently. The goal is to feel long and flat, like you're floating effortlessly on a board, with minimal disruption from your kick. The fins help with propulsion, allowing you to focus on the body line.

Unknown Speaker

We did it!! All nine drills. Way to go Jamie & Emily.

Jamie Russell

And don't forget you can find most of these as video clips on the MindFit Athlete YouTube channel.

Unknown Speaker

Let’s talk about making tautness second nature. Tower26 would have a specific tautness focus for several weeks during the off-season and they'd emphasise many of these drills. You can weave drills and cues into your daily swim sets. Start your warm-up with a few lengths of side kicking and kicking on your back then sprinkle in some 6-1-6 or 6-3-6 drills during your main set. Over time, your body will learn to hold that tautness, even as you get tired.

Emily Carter

And don’t forget about a positive mental focus.

Unknown Speaker

Well, that's essential. I think before you start any new technique work you make a decision to treat yourself with kindness. Imagine you are swimming with your best friend and what you would say to them as they were learning new things? You'd be encouraging and taking the pressure off. Keeping things light and fun? You'd celebrate with them when it went well and not make it personal when it didn't go so well.

Emily Carter

So, we can really use PQ here. Start with self-empathy. Refuse to be self-judgmental. Catch your Judge, Hyper Achiever, Hyper-Vigilant and Avoider. Just put them aside and bring your attention back to the physical sensation of the drills.

Unknown Speaker

Before you even get in the water, take a few moments to sit or stand quietly. Close your eyes and do a quick body scan, from your head down to your toes. Notice any tension, especially in areas crucial for tautness like your core, shoulders, and neck. Inhale deeply, and as you exhale, consciously release any tension you find.

Emily Carter

As you execute each part of your tautness drill keep your attention on specific physical sensations. How does the water feel against your fingertips, forearms, and body? Can you feel the subtle pressure changes as you move through the water, especially as you try to lengthen and hold your body tightly?

Unknown Speaker

Focus on the feeling of your core muscles bracing and supporting your spine. Imagine a string pulling your belly button towards your spine, creating a stable platform. Be mindful of where your head is in relation to your spine. Is it neutral? Is your gaze directed downwards? Feel the water supporting your head.

Emily Carter

Notice the subtle pressure of the water on your feet as you kick. Are your ankles relaxed and flexible? Are your legs kicking from the hip staying within John's (famous) bucket?

Unknown Speaker

As you perform the drills, your mind might wander, or you might notice imperfections in your technique. The key here is not to criticize yourself. Simply observe what's happening without judgment. "My hips are dropping a bit," or "My hand slipped there." Then, gently bring your focus back to the specific aspect of tautness you're working on.

Emily Carter

This process of noticing, releasing judgment, and refocusing builds mental resilience and self-awareness.

Unknown Speaker

Visualization is about mentally rehearsing your desired outcome and feeling it as if it's already happening. For tautness drills, this means creating vivid mental images and sensations of perfect body position and efficient movement.

Emily Carter

Let's give an example of what that could look like: Before pushing off, close your eyes. Visualize yourself as a perfectly taut, sleek arrow launching through the water. See your body as one long, rigid line from your fingertips to your toes. Feel your super-hero arms stretched powerfully in front. Imagine your head tucked perfectly, your core tight, and your glutes squeezed, creating an impenetrable line.

Unknown Speaker

Visualize your torso as a solid plank or a steel rod – unyielding and stable. Feel the connection from your shoulders to your hips, maintaining that rigidity even as your arms and legs move.

Emily Carter

Use visualization or cue words like “long and strong” or “aligned and engaged” during your sets. It sounds simple, but it really helps keep your technique sharp when your mind starts to wander.

Unknown Speaker

During long swims, it’s easy to let your form slip. That’s where those mental cues come in—“long and strong,” “aligned and engaged.” Repeat them to yourself, especially when you start to feel tired. It’s like a little reset button for your technique. But, I want to explore with you both what comes to mind from the Positive Intelligence framework on this topic?

Emily Carter

Oh, for me it's the Sage's whole philosophy of "Ease and Flow" and the skill of "Accept & Convert".

Jamie Russell

Say more about that Emily.

Emily Carter

Well, with an "Ease and Flow" approach It's not about avoiding challenge, but about finding the optimal level of challenge where growth can occur without triggering the Saboteurs into negativity or self-sabotage. When an athlete encounters a new drill like sink downs, the ballet drill or any that involve just kicking without fins and no assistance from their arms then sometimes it feels overwhelmingly difficult. The Saboteur mind, particularly the Judge, Controller or Stickler, might demand they push through. Killing all the enjoyment. The Sage's "Ease & Flow" principle provides a graceful exit strategy and a path forward. It's the wisdom to recognize when a specific drill or intensity on a given day is just too much. By consciously choosing to "back off" and revert to a more foundational drill like kick on side, the athlete isn't failing; they are demonstrating strong empathy-for-self.

Unknown Speaker

I love this Emily. Today's just not the day. But that doesn't mean we can't do something meaningful. We are choosing a path of less resistance that still leads to progress, understanding that true mastery comes from sustained, intelligent effort, not just brute force. It's about respecting the body's and mind's current state, allowing for recovery, adaptation, and sustained enjoyment, which ultimately fosters greater longevity in the sport.

Jamie Russell

You do have to distinguish between making a Sage choice to back off and just not doing it because the Avoider has us in its control?

Emily Carter

Yes, that's spot on Jamie. But the more you practice PQ the more you experience the different energy in the decision. For me the Avoider's energy is negative, somewhat sneaky and feels like cheating. The Sage is from love. I'm making a loving decision to back off today. That's a huge difference.

Unknown Speaker

And Emily, your point on "Accept or Convert" for addressing a weaker core is excellent. The Judge Saboteur thrives on self-recrimination, turning a current circumstance (like a lack of core strength routine) into a source of guilt and self-blame.

Emily Carter

Right, and this negative internal dialogue drains energy, builds tension, and actually prevents positive action. The Sage skill of "Accept" is about neutrally observing my current reality: "Yes, I haven't prioritized core strength." There's no judgment, no "shoulds," just an honest assessment.

Unknown Speaker

And acceptance is really poorly understood. It's not weak or passive. Rather acceptance creates a calm mental space, free from the Saboteur's unhelpful noise.

Emily Carter

Yes, and its from this place of calm awareness, the Sage Power of "Convert" becomes accessible. The perceived "weakness" (of "noodling" in the water) is no longer a source of shame but transforms into a powerful gift or opportunity. "It's an opportunity to learn, to strengthen my core, and to potentially enhance my swimming for years to come." This intelligent reframe of the situation takes it from a problem to an exciting challenge. It ignites the Sage Powers of Explore (how can I integrate core work?) and Activate (taking concrete steps). It's a fundamental shift from being a victim of circumstance to being the empowered architect of your own progress and well-being.

Unknown Speaker

Alright, team, that's a really strong place to finish. So let’s wrap it up. Today we covered why tautness is such an important part of drag reduction - essential for efficient, enjoyable swimming. And really, for all endurance sports. We broke down the science, the drills, and the mental strategies to help you swim like an arrow, not a noodle. If you want to see these drills in action, check out the MindFit Athlete Channel on YouTube—we’ve got video links for most of what we've talked about today.

Emily Carter

Thanks so much for joining us. Remember, it’s not about being perfect—it’s about building awareness and making small improvements over time. And if you have questions or want to share your own “tautness” stories, we’d love to hear from you.

Jamie Russell

Yeah, thanks everyone! And thanks, John and Emily, for another fun chat. Keep practicing, keep experimenting, and don’t forget to enjoy the process. We’ll see you next time.

Unknown Speaker

Brilliant as always, you two. Thanks for listening, everyone. Take care, and we’ll catch you in the next episode. Bye!

Emily Carter

Bye, everyone!

Jamie Russell

See you soon!